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Elite Colleges: Discriminatory Against Asians? Nah…

By BankersBall on Nov 12, 2006 in Bankersrant, Cube Life

Making front page of the Saturday WSJ is a piece about how Asians are held to tougher standards at certain elite universities.

Take for instance poor Jian Li, who got a perfect 2400 on the SAT and nearly perfect on SAT II tests in physics, chem and calculus. Although he got into Yale, he was rejected by Stanford, MIT and three Ivy League schools, including Princeton. Li has now filed a complaint against Princeton with the Office for Civil Rights.

To get a taste of just how inequitable the treatment can be, consider this one statistic:

The Center for Equal Opportunity study found that, among [University of Michigan] applicants with a 1240 SAT score and 3.2 grade point average in 2005, the university admitted 10% of Asian-Americans, 14% of whites, 88% of Hispanics and 92% of blacks. Asian applicants to the university’s medical school also faced a higher admissions bar than any other group.

Considering that many graduates of the top schools get jobs at banks, anyone have insights about this type of thing happening in finance?

26 Comment(s)

On Nov 12, 2006, Anonymous said:

Sounds like whites are discriminated against as well…
On Nov 12, 2006, Anonymous said:

i don’t see this happening in finance. Harvard is very open and public about posting the exact demographic makeup of its students; Blackstone is not.
On Nov 13, 2006, recent college grad said:

There’s more to an application than SAT scores. This article totally missed that point. If a kid is one dimensional and only has high test scores, they’re not going to get into elite schools. The article looked interesting from the headline, but didn’t really say anything too insightful.
On Nov 13, 2006, Joe Schmoe said:

There’s probable some truth to the article. How can you not get into any school with those credentials?
On Nov 13, 2006, Anonymous said:

Let me see if I’m reading right. You tell me that blacks and hispanics are developed much better on more dimensions than asians and whites? On that proportion??? Come on!

Whites and asians are clearly discriminated against.
On Nov 13, 2006, The Corner said:

Why don’t liberals complain about discrimination against whites?
On Nov 13, 2006, MCS said:

Agreed w/ recent college grad. The halls of the Ivys are full of salutorians with much more rounded resumes compared to the perfect grades of the singularly-focused valedectorians.
On Nov 13, 2006, bwen said:

does anyone have stats on one-legged lesbian asians … now that would be adding some “diversity”.
On Nov 13, 2006, BankersBall said:

To assume that people who are hellbent on getting a perfect score on SATs and SAT IIs are somehow stupid enough to not understand how the college admin game works is faulty reasoning.

I’m sure these same people thought enough about the process to engage in at least some amount of “rounding out” their application with the obligatory athletics, activities, clubs etc.
On Nov 13, 2006, anon said:

this is quite ridiculous. Everyone knows asian (and probably indians) are discriminated against in the college and professional school process.

But this kid just wasn’t THAT good by elite HS standards. top 1% of his class - that’s nothing these days…you need to be top 5.

And everyone knows that Yale is easier to get into than the other 3 schools he was rejected from; he also got into cal tech, rutgers and other garbage.

So what’s the problem? he got into the best ivy he could - and best Ivy he deserved, relative to other top students. relative to other minority groups?…well maybe he has a beef, but just a small one.
On Nov 13, 2006, AR said:

I’ve heard of similar problems for Asians (esp. Indians) applying to medical school, although my evidence is mainly anecdotal. Regarding Jian Li in the article, I can’t glean anything from his specific case, but looking at the University of Michigan statistics, clearly there is a bias toward blacks and hispanics. Comparing only Asians and Whites, with acceptance rates of 10% and 14% respectively, its harder to say what’s happening.
On Nov 13, 2006, Anonymous said:

why is this hard to understand? elite schools are no different than any other institution. they pride themselves on diversity just like every other school in the nation. unfortunately due to the fact that statistically there are more highly qualified asians and whites than hispanics and blacks, the schools end up admitting fewer asians and whites in order to keep the diversity to a maximum. this shouldn’t suprise anyone since it’s been the system for years.
On Nov 13, 2006, Anon said:

What can be more revealing may be the rankings of the various ethnic groups that actually get in. I finished b-school not that long ago. By GMAT percentile, I’m in the top 1%, and within the school, I’m definitely within the Top 10. But I also noticed that those in my demographic group ie gender, race, country of origin etc also have similar scores and rankings. I am not saying that there are no GPAs 4.0s who totally suck in real life. I would not go into the reasoning, but I think this does imply that for those of us who make the cut into school X (after taking into consideration other factors), those in my demographic group tend to have much higher academic averages.
On Nov 13, 2006, anon said:

If colleges really cared about diversity, the vast majority of university boards, presidents, regents, department chairs etc wouldn’t be white men. Start mandating ethnic quotas at those lofty levels and I bet affirmative action will come to an abrupt halt, at least in higher education.

On the flip side, underqualified underpresented minorities represent just a small fraction of the student body at an elite school(about 12% at stanford and about 8% at harvard - according to a Stanford conservative student group)…that’s hardly a huge slice that’s taken away from asian and white kids. An asian kid who can’t get into stanford means he probably wasn’t as good as 90% of the rest of the students.
On Nov 14, 2006, T. Man Esq. said:

The med school thing scares me. So I get hit by a speeding cab/poodle dropped from high rise window and a socially promoted minority ends up holding the scalpel. Yikes. Though the stats may shake out like law school, under qualified minorities wash out of the program or end up at the bottom of the class. Exactly where there entrance stats would have predicted. I don’t think this is doing anyone any favors. If anything it perpetuates the subtle racism of low expectations.
On Nov 14, 2006, Mike said:

http://www.amazon.com/Illiberal-Education-Politics-Race-Campus/dp/0684863847
http://www.amazon.com/Chosen-History-Admission-Exclusion-Princeton/dp/0618574581/sr=8-1/qid=1163539996/ref=pd_bbs_1/103-8598555-4178238?ie=UTF8&s=books

Books pretty much cover it. Life is unfair? The higher educational system is hypocritical? Water is wet?
On Nov 16, 2006, Leverage said:

As someone who has worked at a university in alumni relations, I think it would be helpful to look at this issue in dollar terms. Tuition, in most cases, doesn’t cover half of what it actually costs to educate a student. Alumni donations, therefore, are crucial because they cover the shortfall. When universities speak of diversifying their student body, they really intend to diversify their future revenue stream by admitting students who they believe, based on the entire application package, will be successful and hopefully make future donations to the school. The same reasoning applies to why legacy applicants, who generally have lower test scores than their institution’s student body, are admitted. It’s been proven to be financially rewarding to the university. Athletic applicants, who also have lower test scores than the student body, tend to financially support their respective teams after graduation and, at larger schools, bring in revenues through ticket sales and television contracts. Both revenue sources help offset the costs of maintaining sports programs. Of course higher institutions will never public ally admit that these factors play a part in admissions but it is quite obvious that they do.
On Nov 22, 2006, Banker said:

I believe what the statistics show is that perhaps there are far more Asian and white applicants with the 1240 SAT scores and 3.2 GPA’s, thus a smaller percentage of the “applicant pool” are selected. I do not see the problem with the colleges, I see it in the grammar and high schools.
On Dec 27, 2006, Mike said:

I had a 1240 SAT score exactly with a 3.3 GPA and the best school I could get accepted to was Northeastern. Those stats are a little low for Ivy, no?
On Dec 28, 2006, Anonymous said:

What the colleges and universities never mention is all those spots saved for legacy (read: predominantly white) students.
On Jan 8, 2007, Chris said:

I’m black, graduated in 2004 with a GPA of 3.1 and an SAT of 1300 (second attempt). I got rejected from every “Ivy League” school I applied to, and instead had to settle for a pretty good state school.

As for Asians, they really do perform at quite a higher level–the one AP Bio. couse I took Senior year was 70% Asian, the remainder white, and me being the only black! The school was only 10% Asian.

What really strikes me though (looking beyond college admissions) is the lack of Asian professionals (CEO’s, top management, executives) in high ranking positions. With these numbers, you’d expect to see Asian-dominated top level executives like a dime a dozen.

And as for blacks, they just typically perform at lower levels–there simply isn’t as much emphasis placed on suceeding academically. Interesting to note that in the ’60’s and ’70’s when my dad got his MBA, there were a lot more high achieving blacks than there seem to be today.
On Feb 14, 2008, Jackson said:

I agree with the previous poster who mentioned the problem is the cutoff stats and presentation.

There are more whites and asians with high GPAs than there are blacks and hispanics as a proportion of that ethnic group. If you look at the distributions for each subgroup (and I haven’t, so these numbers are totally fabricated and I’m just using them to make a theoretical point) then I think you’d expect that if the median SAT for asians was 1000 (yeah, I’m from the old 1600 days) then the median SAT for blacks might only be 800.

Ergo, if you are black and make the cut above 1240 and 3.3, then compared against the minority group you are part of, you are much more above average than an asian with the same stats.

This is the reverse side of racial balancing at colleges. If you want x% white, y% black, etc, then if your group is over-qualified compared to your representation you are discriminated against, and if your group is under-qualified compared to your representation you are discriminated for. This is not new. This is how affirmative action works.

If the kid is going to succeed in his lawsuit, that will also open the door for a flood of lawsuits by rejected white applicants; it’s the same situation there. Whether this is good or bad, I don’t really have an opinion on.
On Apr 7, 2008, Big Baller said:

That’s because universities value diversity and all Asians look the same… Once you admit one of each gender, you are done for the year.
On Apr 26, 2008, :( said:

how racist…”big baller” quote: all asians look the same…
On May 27, 2008, John Foster said:

Obviously Asians are discrimated against here, and schools reach out to Hispanics and African Americans. Imagine how difficult it is in California?

If preference wasn’t given to these two groups, the races that constitute 65% of California high school graduates would account for only 10% of the students in places like Berkeley, Stanford and UCLA.

But please, this is not something we are to be aware of. And, if we are aware of it, it is not proper to discuss the matter in a public forum.
On Jun 11, 2008, Tom Lee said:

Let’s be real. Affirmative action punishes you if you belong to an “ethnic group” that performs too well. Instead of rewarding your years of hard work and perseverance they not only reject you but also have the temerity to imply that you are not “well rounded” or are “one-dimensional” This is racism at its worst period.

Post a Comment

On Nov 12, 2006, Anonymous said:

Sounds like whites are discriminated against as well…

i don’t see this happening in finance. Harvard is very open and public about posting the exact demographic makeup of its students; Blackstone is not.

On Nov 13, 2006, recent college grad said:

There’s more to an application than SAT scores. This article totally missed that point. If a kid is one dimensional and only has high test scores, they’re not going to get into elite schools. The article looked interesting from the headline, but didn’t really say anything too insightful.

On Nov 13, 2006, Joe Schmoe said:

There’s probable some truth to the article. How can you not get into any school with those credentials?

On Nov 13, 2006, Anonymous said:

Let me see if I’m reading right. You tell me that blacks and hispanics are developed much better on more dimensions than asians and whites? On that proportion??? Come on!

Whites and asians are clearly discriminated against.

On Nov 13, 2006, The Corner said:

Why don’t liberals complain about discrimination against whites?

On Nov 13, 2006, MCS said:

Agreed w/ recent college grad. The halls of the Ivys are full of salutorians with much more rounded resumes compared to the perfect grades of the singularly-focused valedectorians.

On Nov 13, 2006, bwen said:

does anyone have stats on one-legged lesbian asians … now that would be adding some “diversity”.

On Nov 13, 2006, BankersBall said:

To assume that people who are hellbent on getting a perfect score on SATs and SAT IIs are somehow stupid enough to not understand how the college admin game works is faulty reasoning.

I’m sure these same people thought enough about the process to engage in at least some amount of “rounding out” their application with the obligatory athletics, activities, clubs etc.

On Nov 13, 2006, anon said:

this is quite ridiculous. Everyone knows asian (and probably indians) are discriminated against in the college and professional school process.

But this kid just wasn’t THAT good by elite HS standards. top 1% of his class - that’s nothing these days…you need to be top 5.

And everyone knows that Yale is easier to get into than the other 3 schools he was rejected from; he also got into cal tech, rutgers and other garbage.

So what’s the problem? he got into the best ivy he could - and best Ivy he deserved, relative to other top students. relative to other minority groups?…well maybe he has a beef, but just a small one.

On Nov 13, 2006, AR said:

I’ve heard of similar problems for Asians (esp. Indians) applying to medical school, although my evidence is mainly anecdotal. Regarding Jian Li in the article, I can’t glean anything from his specific case, but looking at the University of Michigan statistics, clearly there is a bias toward blacks and hispanics. Comparing only Asians and Whites, with acceptance rates of 10% and 14% respectively, its harder to say what’s happening.

why is this hard to understand? elite schools are no different than any other institution. they pride themselves on diversity just like every other school in the nation. unfortunately due to the fact that statistically there are more highly qualified asians and whites than hispanics and blacks, the schools end up admitting fewer asians and whites in order to keep the diversity to a maximum. this shouldn’t suprise anyone since it’s been the system for years.

On Nov 13, 2006, Anon said:

What can be more revealing may be the rankings of the various ethnic groups that actually get in. I finished b-school not that long ago. By GMAT percentile, I’m in the top 1%, and within the school, I’m definitely within the Top 10. But I also noticed that those in my demographic group ie gender, race, country of origin etc also have similar scores and rankings. I am not saying that there are no GPAs 4.0s who totally suck in real life. I would not go into the reasoning, but I think this does imply that for those of us who make the cut into school X (after taking into consideration other factors), those in my demographic group tend to have much higher academic averages.

If colleges really cared about diversity, the vast majority of university boards, presidents, regents, department chairs etc wouldn’t be white men. Start mandating ethnic quotas at those lofty levels and I bet affirmative action will come to an abrupt halt, at least in higher education.

On the flip side, underqualified underpresented minorities represent just a small fraction of the student body at an elite school(about 12% at stanford and about 8% at harvard - according to a Stanford conservative student group)…that’s hardly a huge slice that’s taken away from asian and white kids. An asian kid who can’t get into stanford means he probably wasn’t as good as 90% of the rest of the students.

On Nov 14, 2006, T. Man Esq. said:

The med school thing scares me. So I get hit by a speeding cab/poodle dropped from high rise window and a socially promoted minority ends up holding the scalpel. Yikes. Though the stats may shake out like law school, under qualified minorities wash out of the program or end up at the bottom of the class. Exactly where there entrance stats would have predicted. I don’t think this is doing anyone any favors. If anything it perpetuates the subtle racism of low expectations.

On Nov 14, 2006, Mike said:

http://www.amazon.com/Illiberal-Education-Politics-Race-Campus/dp/0684863847
http://www.amazon.com/Chosen-History-Admission-Exclusion-Princeton/dp/0618574581/sr=8-1/qid=1163539996/ref=pd_bbs_1/103-8598555-4178238?ie=UTF8&s=books

Books pretty much cover it. Life is unfair? The higher educational system is hypocritical? Water is wet?

On Nov 16, 2006, Leverage said:

As someone who has worked at a university in alumni relations, I think it would be helpful to look at this issue in dollar terms. Tuition, in most cases, doesn’t cover half of what it actually costs to educate a student. Alumni donations, therefore, are crucial because they cover the shortfall. When universities speak of diversifying their student body, they really intend to diversify their future revenue stream by admitting students who they believe, based on the entire application package, will be successful and hopefully make future donations to the school. The same reasoning applies to why legacy applicants, who generally have lower test scores than their institution’s student body, are admitted. It’s been proven to be financially rewarding to the university. Athletic applicants, who also have lower test scores than the student body, tend to financially support their respective teams after graduation and, at larger schools, bring in revenues through ticket sales and television contracts. Both revenue sources help offset the costs of maintaining sports programs. Of course higher institutions will never public ally admit that these factors play a part in admissions but it is quite obvious that they do.

On Nov 22, 2006, Banker said:

I believe what the statistics show is that perhaps there are far more Asian and white applicants with the 1240 SAT scores and 3.2 GPA’s, thus a smaller percentage of the “applicant pool” are selected. I do not see the problem with the colleges, I see it in the grammar and high schools.

On Dec 27, 2006, Mike said:

I had a 1240 SAT score exactly with a 3.3 GPA and the best school I could get accepted to was Northeastern. Those stats are a little low for Ivy, no?

On Dec 28, 2006, Anonymous said:

What the colleges and universities never mention is all those spots saved for legacy (read: predominantly white) students.

On Jan 8, 2007, Chris said:

I’m black, graduated in 2004 with a GPA of 3.1 and an SAT of 1300 (second attempt). I got rejected from every “Ivy League” school I applied to, and instead had to settle for a pretty good state school.

As for Asians, they really do perform at quite a higher level–the one AP Bio. couse I took Senior year was 70% Asian, the remainder white, and me being the only black! The school was only 10% Asian.

What really strikes me though (looking beyond college admissions) is the lack of Asian professionals (CEO’s, top management, executives) in high ranking positions. With these numbers, you’d expect to see Asian-dominated top level executives like a dime a dozen.

And as for blacks, they just typically perform at lower levels–there simply isn’t as much emphasis placed on suceeding academically. Interesting to note that in the ’60’s and ’70’s when my dad got his MBA, there were a lot more high achieving blacks than there seem to be today.

On Feb 14, 2008, Jackson said:

I agree with the previous poster who mentioned the problem is the cutoff stats and presentation.

There are more whites and asians with high GPAs than there are blacks and hispanics as a proportion of that ethnic group. If you look at the distributions for each subgroup (and I haven’t, so these numbers are totally fabricated and I’m just using them to make a theoretical point) then I think you’d expect that if the median SAT for asians was 1000 (yeah, I’m from the old 1600 days) then the median SAT for blacks might only be 800.

Ergo, if you are black and make the cut above 1240 and 3.3, then compared against the minority group you are part of, you are much more above average than an asian with the same stats.

This is the reverse side of racial balancing at colleges. If you want x% white, y% black, etc, then if your group is over-qualified compared to your representation you are discriminated against, and if your group is under-qualified compared to your representation you are discriminated for. This is not new. This is how affirmative action works.

If the kid is going to succeed in his lawsuit, that will also open the door for a flood of lawsuits by rejected white applicants; it’s the same situation there. Whether this is good or bad, I don’t really have an opinion on.

On Apr 7, 2008, Big Baller said:

That’s because universities value diversity and all Asians look the same… Once you admit one of each gender, you are done for the year.

On Apr 26, 2008, :( said:

how racist…”big baller” quote: all asians look the same…

On May 27, 2008, John Foster said:

Obviously Asians are discrimated against here, and schools reach out to Hispanics and African Americans. Imagine how difficult it is in California?

If preference wasn’t given to these two groups, the races that constitute 65% of California high school graduates would account for only 10% of the students in places like Berkeley, Stanford and UCLA.

But please, this is not something we are to be aware of. And, if we are aware of it, it is not proper to discuss the matter in a public forum.

On Jun 11, 2008, Tom Lee said:

Let’s be real. Affirmative action punishes you if you belong to an “ethnic group” that performs too well. Instead of rewarding your years of hard work and perseverance they not only reject you but also have the temerity to imply that you are not “well rounded” or are “one-dimensional” This is racism at its worst period.